S1:E21 – Creating Rewarding Workplaces


In this episode, Bridgette and Irvine explore how we can reverse engineer more rewarding workplaces and in turn increase employee retention.



Don’t forget to check out Irvine’s You Tube channel with new videos every Wednesday on emotional intelligence, resilience, and leadership.

Check out Irvine’s new book Leadership Lessons From The Pub.

Check out Bridgette’s book which she co-authored with Bod Duggan  Resilient Leadership 2.0.

And as always, don’t forget about all the mind-blowing free resources some of which are mentioned in each episode. 


Irvine: Welcome, everyone, to the Resilient Leadership Podcast, where everything we talk about is aimed at helping you lead with a greater sense of calm, clarity, and conviction, even in anxious times. My name is Irvine Nugent, and, as always, I’m lucky to have my co-host and collaborator with me, Bridgette Theurer. Bridgette, how you doing today?

Bridgette: Irvine, thanks for asking. I am doing, let’s see, let me be thoughtful. I’m doing very well, thank you. Yeah. Feeling good. I’ve been traveling, I didn’t get sick. I was around some people who tested positive for COVID, I did not get COVID.

Irvine: Yay.

Bridgette: No, I did not. I came back from visiting a dear friend, I’m in a great place and it’s lovely to be here with you.

Irvine: And I know that you are celebrating a little bundle of joy in your life recently. Tell our listeners about that.

Bridgette: Oh, yes, thank you. Thank you for the invitation to do that. I’ll keep it, really, brief. But we just welcomed to our third grandchild. My son had his first baby, a baby boy named Jace. He’s three weeks old and he’s rocking it already.

Irvine: I love it. I love it. Well, congratulations.

Bridgette: Thank you. Thank you.

Irvine: Well, today’s episode, we are going to talk about creating rewarding workplaces. Now, I know in some past episodes that we’ve discussed the reality oof modern day workplaces, that there’s a, real, tremendous shift going on. We’re, really, realizing, I think, we’re beginning to understand what is this? And this just didn’t start with COVID, I think it exacerbated, perhaps, what was there, but some of the statistics are, really, alarming. I read one, recently, from Everett [Inaudible – 1:53] that said 83% of workers are reporting higher levels of stress and anxiety. 49% said that was caused by poor communication. 35% said it was caused by their boss. And a whopping 65% said that they are actively considering quitting their jobs.

So, certainly, there’s a lot going on in our workplaces, and I thought it would be great to, really, think about, how do we create attractive workplaces. And we’re going to approach this with a little bit of reverse engineering, and we’re going to look at our five primal needs as human beings and see how they impact us in the workplace and how we can use them to create rewarding workplaces.

Bridgette: And, boy, is that needed now more than ever, right? Because if we’re not working in what we assess to be a rewarding workplace, we have other options and we will find them.

Irvine: Absolutely.

Bridgette: So, we have to look at, as leaders, what are the keys? And you’re mentioning this notion of primal needs, and so what are these primal needs that we all share, Irvine?

Irvine: Yeah, well, there’s a little acronym that you can use to remember them; Abcs, ABCsquaredS, and it’s ABCCS. And they stand for approval, belonging, control, certainty, and safety. And when any one of these five are threatened, what happens is that we are triggered into reactive behaviors, which, of course, show up in workplace anxiety. And why they’re important, we are going to talk about how they cause anxiety, but here’s the clue. We also know that if we are diligent in trying to create workplaces that address issues of approval, belonging, control, certainty, and safety, then we also trigger the reward circuitry in the brain and we can create workplaces that are truly rewarding.

And we know that people don’t leave rewarding workplaces, they tend to stay there. So, Bridgette, I’m curious, you coach a lot of different professional clients in different settings, what have you experienced? Are you experiencing this shift of anxiety in the workplace? And how’s that showing up with some of your clients?

Bridgette: Well, of course, during COVID there was lots of anxiety, particularly, in the early phases of it, right? And now, we’ve, sort of, weathered that storm and we’re on the other side of it, and one would think, well, then everything’s great, we’re all relieved, we’re all much less anxious, but I don’t think that’s true across the board. I think it depends on where you work. I coach some leaders in education, and those systems are still, highly, anxious, finding teachers, holy smokes, that’s a real challenge, right?

Irvine: Yeah, totally.

Bridgette: I think that other industries, healthcare, I coach some leaders in healthcare, there are some significant challenges finding nurses and other people. And I just think we’re still getting used to the hybrid situation, we’re still transitioning to that. And for some people, that is creating some anxiety because the line between when you stop working, right? And when your home is so blurred that, I think there’s some angst about that still. So, even though, one would say, Boy, we should be free and clear of anxiety, I don’t think that’s the case, I think there’s still a fair amount of it circulating in us and in our workplaces.

Irvine: So, that’s a great segue then, let’s begin to, really, think about and talk a little bit about the impact of anxiety on the workplace. Now, we’ve discussed this in a number of different episodes, and you can go back to episode 12 or the previous episode as well, but I think it’s always great just to have a little bit of a summary around that. So, Bridgette, let’s remind our viewers what we mean when we talk about anxiety and its impact in the workplace.

Bridgette: Yeah, I think it’s important to define it and redefine it because when we hear anxiety, sometimes we think about anxiety disorders, and, of course, that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about a fundamental condition for humans, and we define anxiety as the state of unease in the face of imagined or real threats. And it’s an evolutionary force of nature, it exists to help us survive. And so, if we weren’t anxious, we wouldn’t live very long. And if our businesses and organizations didn’t have some anxiety humming in the background, they might not last very long. Because it can be that galvanizing force at its best to help us detect threats and face into them, right?

Irvine: Yeah.

Bridgette: And here’s the thing. Sometimes, in fact, maybe often, especially now, the amount of anxiety that we feel in ourselves or in our teams, in our families is sometimes about anxiety that we are anticipating or we are thinking might happen, but haven’t materialized yet. And yet there’s a worry that is very palpable or, maybe, the anxiety is about a minor threat that our amygdal, right? Has fired us up repeatedly and the threat is defcon five, when, really, it’s much more minor than that. So, it’s a tricky thing, it’s absolutely essential to our survival, and yet so much of the anxiety we experience is trumped up, shall we say.

Irvine: Yep, absolutely. And what I love about that is you’re, kind of, pointing, as well, to the reality that anxiety has, really, two pathways in the brain that come to us. The first is that pathway off-of the amygdala, the emotional center of the brain and this instinctive reaction to something that’s happening, we just go into automatic, and that’s a survival technique. So, if you’ve ever been in, I was driving in the Georgia, Washington Beltway last week, and there’s a lane there that goes and you merge from two into one, and the person next to me, even though, it was my right-of-way, was not going to give me the right-of-way, and we were, kind of, but, Fred, my husband, was sitting next and he had a real shock.

And you could just see the pure rush of adrenaline through him, he was like, Oh my God, you’re going to crash, you’re going to crash. And so, that was this anxiety, which just in that moment, and then the second you also alerted to as well; is this thought process that goes in our worries and our concerns, this cortex-based anxiety. And how many times do we find ourselves replaying things that have happened in meetings or anticipating something that’s going to happen in a meeting, and we work ourselves into anxiety as well. And so, this is important. It’s important because it impacts our behavior.

So, maybe, Bridgette, would you talk a little bit about what are some of the most common things we see, common behaviors in the workplace because of these this anxiety within us?

Bridgette: Yeah. I think the first place to look is around decision-making. What happens to decision-making when the people making the decisions are, really, anxious. And we tend to go to the extremes when we’re anxious. So, one is you’re going to see quick fixes and people just throwing stuff, let’s get something done here, which isn’t, necessarily, bad all the time, right? But it may be premature. And then you’ll see the opposite of that, which is not deciding at all and becoming paralyzed by analysis, right?

So, that’s something we can look at. We can look at conflict, what happens to conflict when anxiety is on the rise, for some people they become more combative, more confrontational, and others have the, what a colleague referred to lately, as the disease to please. And so, there’s a, sort of, smoothing over and appeasing behavior to keep things tamped down. Yeah.

Irvine: Yeah.

Bridgette: And then, just how do we handle feeling, maybe, out of control? Do we start to micromanage? Do we start to insert ourselves, unnecessarily, into the details? Or do we just, sort of, wash our hands and give people lots of room, so much room that they can hang themselves? We go to the extremes when we’re anxious and that’s something that we can be mindful of, right?

Irvine: Yeah.

Bridgette: And, of course, one of those behaviors create a, wonderfully, rewarding workplace.

Irvine: Absolutely not. Oh, I’ve been in a few of those and they were anything but rewarding, so it starts you in a vicious circle of more anxiety. Absolutely. So, taking that, so we know, therefore, that if we’re going to create rewarding workplaces, that we have to change these patterns. And I think what we want to examine, really, today is that one of the ways that we can, actually, begin to look at changing those patterns is getting to the root, really, of what causes some of that anxiety. And we already began with these five primal needs when threatened are direct causes of anxiety; however, they also are the clues to helping us create rewarding workplaces. So, I think it’s important that we begin to look at these five core areas.

Bridgette: Yeah. Because it’s like a toolbox for leaders, right? You want to create a rewarding workplace so that you have engaged employees so that you have low turnover. What’s the toolbox you draw on? And you, already, mentioned the acronym, the ABCsquaredS. So, A, is for approval, that’s the first tool. I think of approval as the basic human desire to feel respected, valued, appreciated, what’s the impact of approval in the workplace and on people’s levels of anxiety?

Irvine: Yeah. Well, we’re social beings and we’ve mentioned this before, and so part of our very makeup, our DNA, is that we are constantly scanning the environment for signs of approval from significant others and from different spaces in our lives. We tend to live in tribes, it’s how we developed as human beings, and so do we fit in or do we have approval? Now, think about the last time you were in a meeting and you had a little presentation to give to the boss. If you had cameras all around that room, you would see these little micro glances at the boss, what’s the boss’ body language? Am I getting a nod? Am I getting approval?

We can’t help ourselves because this is part of fitting in, and if we’re getting nothing, our anxiety level tends to rise. If we get people who are enjoying it, saying things, nodding their heads, then our anxiety level is lessened. And so, part of this I think is, really, reflecting on our self-worth and our level of self-worth. How secure do we feel in ourselves? And I think when we have very low self-worth, then we begin to question certain things, we begin to question our contributions, the worth of them, is it, really, worth anything? I know as an entrepreneur, sometimes I’ll look at other people around me who are speakers or something and I say, Oh my God, they’re so much better than me.

And I’m writing this blog, this blog is useless, or whatever, so we get into this cycle and it raises our levels of anxiety. And so, therefore, we also know that being a leader, at times, means taking some critical stands, it means standing up and taking a clear stand that, at times, may have opposition from other people. And so, if we don’t have a strong self-approval, we don’t have a strong sense of self-worth that becomes ever more difficult. But, as a leader as well, I think it’s important for us to create workplaces where we do give signals.

Bridgette: Yeah.

Irvine: Where we don’t be poker-faced from people that we, really, and this is not to be disingenuous, but to, actually, give genuine compliments to, really, voice and help people understand they are making a difference, and that their contribution is appreciated, all of those, really. That’s why it is so important in the workplace, because it, really, helps people address one of these core needs that we have.

Bridgette: Yeah. Descending the signals, I like how you said that. And there are lots of ways we can do it. It’s as simple as the example you gave of nodding when people are speaking and presenting and giving them eye contact and so forth. But it’s also something as simple as saying, here’s how your contribution made a difference and connecting the dots for people, because they don’t always know that.

Irvine: Absolutely.

Bridgette: And being explicit about how their contribution made a difference. Or even just asking the people who work for you, Hey, what’s a way that you feel you’ve made a difference lately that’s, really, meaningful to you?

Irvine: Yeah.

Bridgette: You know?

Irvine: Yeah. It’s interesting you say that. I was just having a coaching session yesterday and my client has a, it’s a difficult relationship with their boss, it’s had its moments, it’s ups and downs, but they were both working on a project that’s coming up and it required a lot of hours. And she said, my boss, at least, three different times sent me an email or called me to thank me for my work. And you could just hear the tone of her voice change and you could just see some of that anxiety just, it was, almost, a breathing out. And so, you can just feel, kind of, how this creates an atmosphere that’s just bringing anxiety down and increasing the reward.

Bridgette: Yeah. Such a simple tool, but, I think, again, what happens is we sometimes overlook it. We sometimes forget that it’s in our toolbox.

Irvine: Yeah, absolutely. So, Bridgette, our second core need is belonging. And so, how does belonging impact anxiety and how might we use it to create workplace reward?

Bridgette: Well, you were just talking about the fact that we are social beings at our core, right?

Irvine: Yeah.

Bridgette: And from an evolutionary perspective, we survived if we were part of a tribe and we didn’t survive if we were outside a tribe. So, deep within our DNA is a yearning and longing to belong, to feel part of. And when we do, it’s intrinsically rewarding and when we don’t, it’s highly threatening. And, again, it’s a tool that leaders can draw upon, and there’s a reflection here, I think, for all of us who manage teams and manage companies is what is the level of felt belonging in this team and in this organization. Who feels like they belong and who might feel like they’re on the outskirts, right? Some of the recent efforts that organizations have made around diversity, inclusion, and equity programs, I think that’s part of, right?

Irvine: Yes.

Bridgette: Creating a more rewarding workplace, where more people can feel that they have a voice, they have a place, and that they fit and belong. Yeah. So, I think just stepping back to say in this team or in this organization, who has a seat at the table and whose voices are heard the most and whose voices need to be heard more so that they feel part of the group and they belong.

Irvine: Yeah. And how can we make sure, and we’ll get into this a little bit, that it’s safe for people to sound those voices.

Bridgette: Exactly. And that’s why safety is another primal need, right?

Irvine: Yeah.

Bridgette: They go hand-in-hand. I was just wondering, though, Irvine, so all the folks that you’ve coached, can you share with listeners, maybe, an example of a leader that you think did a pretty good job of creating a sense of approval and belonging and, therefore, created a rewarding team experience?

Irvine: Yeah. A leader that comes to mind, who, and, again, this wasn’t massive, but here’s what’s, it was consistent. And one of the things that they did, consistently, with all of their team meetings is that they took a few minutes at the beginning to, really, have a check-in, it was a check-in, question, something. It created, I think an atmosphere that this person cares about where I’m at today, and they were always saying one of their goals was to create an atmosphere was okay for people to say, I don’t know. It was okay for people to say, I need help. And so, that belonging.

And then, the other thing is that they always did an offsite and, kind of, COVID disrupted that a little bit, but they always did an offsite and in that offsite, there always was time for some form of socialization or something that people could get to know each other. And he always encouraged people to have little meetings, 20 minute meetings, check-in meetings with each other as well. So, it was this, carefully, crafted sense that I am creating community, that I’m creating a team, and that goes at the core of what we’ve been talking about, about feeling the need to belong and feeling the need to be appreciated and being approved.

Bridgette: Yeah. I love that you brought up community, because that’s such a great word for belonging, right?

Irvine: Yeah.

Bridgette: Yeah. Are we creating a sense of community? And it’s an interesting balance, approval and belonging. Because approval is about the individual, right?

Irvine: Yeah.

Bridgette: And belonging is about the group and both are so important. Yeah.

Irvine: Yeah. Yeah.

Bridgette: And, again, with the things that we’re talking about, in terms of what leaders can do, don’t cost you anything, you know?

Irvine: Yeah.

Bridgette: And they’re not even, necessarily, inordinately taxing, in terms of the time investment. We just have to remember to do them.

Irvine: Yeah. Yeah. It’s so true.

Bridgette: So, approval, belonging, what’s the next one, approval, belonging?

Irvine: And certainty.

Bridgette: Certainty. Oh, yes.

Irvine: Yeah. So, it should come as no surprise that, as human beings, that we like to feel certain and secure. And, of course, we like to know what’s happening in our lives, we like to know what’s happening next. And, however, here we are in a world that is robbing that at a quicker pace each and every day. And certainty is very hard to come by, nothing is certain anymore. And we’re living in times of unprecedented change, and what’s more that ain’t slowing down, that’s just part and parcel of living as a human being in 2022. And it’s so quick, at times, it’s even hard to process, it is mind-blowing how much our world is changing.

And so, that impacts so many different areas of our lives, but let me just pull out one where I think perhaps this certainty can impact workplaces and leadership, and that’s with decision-making, we mentioned it at the beginning. At times, it used to be that we could make decisions with a hundred percent clarity and those days are gone. Leaders today are scrambling to make decisions in a space with so many unknowns. And where there is little certainty, and, of course, that gets to the whole question of how much risk am I willing to take? And it’s a great cause of anxiety.

And one of the ways that I, kind of, like to address this is by flipping that and that, yes, okay, there’s a lot of risk, but then I always like to ask, Well, what’s the risk in not taking the decision?

Bridgette: Yeah.

Irvine: What’s the risk in not speaking up? Your organization needs your voice, this decision at this time. And then, kind of, think about a time when you made a decision that you just weren’t sure about and it turned out for the rest. Can you think of what that felt like? Oh, well, that felt wonderful; there was this release of pure joy that I got something right. And I think that’s the balance and the focus that we have to have.

Bridgette: I like that you’re connecting the primal need of certainty to being clear and being clear about decisions and making decisions. Because the truth of the matter is, we can’t give people certainty.

Irvine: No.

Bridgette: Right?

Irvine: Yeah.

Bridgette: But we can give people more clarity about how a decision is going to be made, who’s going to make it, what the decision, actually, is, what the risk and reward proposition is around that, you know?

Irvine: Yeah. Yeah.

Bridgette: There’s a question I’d like to give my clients that is directly related, I think, to this primal need, which is to think about where you might need to be clearer about what and with whom.

Irvine: Yeah.

Bridgette: Invariably, there’s some place where people need a pinch more of clarity from you, whether it’s about a decision or an expectation or a role or responsibility or what have you. Now, things that aren’t clear, a confusing, uncertain, unclear workplace is highly threatening and not very rewarding, bottom line.

Irvine: Yeah. Yeah. So, a close cousin of our friend certainty would be control. And, Bridgette, talk a little bit about that, how does control and the need for control impact anxiety in the workplace?

Bridgette: Well, again, we are born with a desire to exert control over our lives. I’m watching my children raise children and I’m being reminded of toddlers and their will to control. It surfaces at such a young age. And so, we are beings that want to feel in control of our day, our destiny, our careers, our lives, and so the question becomes, for leaders, this is a very powerful tool in creating a more rewarding and less threatening workplace, which is just to say, where can we give people a greater sense of control? Over what they’re doing, over how they’re doing it, where they’re doing it, in what way.

And, of course, when you work for somebody, you give up control, of course. We’re not saying just let everybody do whatever they want, but to be in that conversation about where could we give people more choice? And I think we talked about that many episodes ago, about how choice can be a powerful motivator.

Irvine: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And, really, choice and having that sense of, there are so many things out of our control, so to bring into our orbit, what are some things that I can do today that are within my control, at least, in my influence? And that becomes, really, important, I think, in our lives.

Bridgette: So, safety is the last one, is that right? Or did I skip one?

Irvine: Yeah.

Bridgette: Yeah.

Irvine: No.

Bridgette: Okay. So, how about safety? Is it connected to control? And what about safety? Because, of course, we’re not, really, talking about physical safety, although, or in COVID, we were.

Irvine: Yeah.

Bridgette: Yeah.

Irvine: Well, I think that’s very basic. I think most people would understand that if we don’t feel safe, then anxiety is a product of that. And, as you say, thankfully, many of us do not have to live with physical safety issues, but emotional safety is massive, it’s huge. And when we feel emotionally threatened, we go into an instinctual response; fight or flight, freeze or appease, tend or befriend. And these are instinctive reactions and they are so common within our workplace. And I think, therefore, it’s, really, important for leaders to consider, how do I create spaces where people feel safe? And often, it is not these huge things, but it’s, really, I think, leaders displaying by example and setting an example.

So, for example, but how do we deal with mistakes? And it’s this acknowledgement that if I make a mistake, we’re not going to hold it against you personally, or what happens in the workplace if you get something wrong. And it’s okay to be wrong, and if you were wrong, we’re not going to use it against you; we’re not going to bring it up. And I mentioned this earlier, if I need help, is it okay for me to ask? And so, it’s, really, powerful when a leader’s able to say, You know what? I need help in this, I don’t know, help me out here. Or if you change your mind, that’s okay. Considering the world that we’re in and certainty when we have little of it, it’s okay to change your mind, and people will accept that and accept your humility.

That’s saying, You know what? I made a decision here and I’m going to change my mind. And the other thing is to be able to interpret people’s actions in the best light, to give them some grace. And I think this creates a place where people begin, can, kind of, breathe out a little more. And also it creates a wonderful workplace where I can take a little bit of risk, I can make a decision, I can experiment, I can be curious, all of these things are things that we know that we need in workplaces, and I think this final attribute can, really, help.

Bridgette: I like that you’re bringing up assuming positive intent. I think that’s so important. And also, though, that the best way, maybe, to create a safe and, therefore, rewarding workplace is through leaders modeling it. Because if a leader says, Boy, I’m, really, struggling here, I need some help figuring this out.

Irvine: Yeah.

Bridgette: Or, I, really, don’t know the answer here, but I need your help, together we can figure it out. They’re modeling that it’s safe for their employees to say the same things. If they don’t model it, forget it. No one’s going to stick their neck out.

Irvine: Absolutely not.

Bridgette: Right?

Irvine: Yeah. Yeah. You have a good example, Bridgette, of a client who was able to model or navigate through the core needs of; we’ve talked about certainty, control, and safety.

Bridgette: Well, I’m thinking of a client that I coached, who was part of a senior team. And as we were working together, she, sort of, shared the assessment that she didn’t feel there was enough psychological safety in the team for people to, really, speak up. And some people didn’t feel like they belonged. So, there were the people who thought, I belong. And then, there were the people who were like, I’m not sure I belong here. And not everybody was, really, sharing their voice. And so, the interesting thing is what she decided to do about that, which is that she got, really, curious about this concept of psychological safety, which she had read an article about.

And she asked her boss, the CEO, well, she shared her assessment and he agreed and she said, I’m, really, interested in this topic, what if I do some research on it, and then share what I learned about it with the team? And, maybe, we could just explore this as a learning opportunity. He said, Sure, go for it. And she learned all about it, and she created a couple of informal presentations and they, kind of, worked on it as a priority in the team. I thought that was pretty cool.

Irvine: Ooh, I love that. That’s, really, great. Yeah.

Bridgette: because she could have just folded her arms and said, Well, nothing to do here. So, I thought that was a way of taking ownership that was pretty admirable, right? Yeah.

Irvine: Yeah.

Bridgette: So, okay. So, I think we finished.

Irvine: We have.

Bridgette: With the toolbox, right? We’ve covered them all.

Irvine: We have covered them all.

Bridgette: It’s a lot for people to think about. I like the acronym of ABCsquaredS, right?

Irvine: Yeah.

Bridgette: But we always leave people with a practice. So, I don’t know. Irvine, what do you suggest?

Irvine: Yeah, I’m thinking to practice today, I’m going to call getting to the core. So, we have these core, so three steps. One is when we feel triggered or anxious to stop and ask, what am I feeling anxious about? What’s going on here? And then, if I had to classify this into one of those core needs, what would it be? Is it approval, belonging, certainty, control, safety, which one of those am I feeling triggered about? And then, when you’ve, kind of, chosen one and you don’t have to get it right, this is not a, it’s, really, an exercise to, really, focus to the best you can. And then choose an action that might lower your level of anxiety, or if you’re a leader, choose an action that could build more reward within the workplace.

So, say for approval, it might be read a recommendation you received from someone, or a testimonial from a client or an annual review that you love. Or if a leader, make sure that you’re giving enough approval to others. And belonging, what’s a concrete action I could do to get to know another person in the team a little bit better? Can I take someone out to coffee, create a little bit of community? Or if it’s certainty, the question I ask is, I know there’s risk in making a decision, but what’s the risk of not making a decision? Or control, I know that this is out of my control, but what’s in my control? What can I do now or what’s in my influence?

And then, finally, safety. And very often when safety, we go into the fight or flight action and just breathing can, really, just help us, kind of, stop. And then, am I, really, unsafe here? What’s happening? And then, kind of, move to more, how can I build-up some safety within me? How can I build-up some safety within the workplace?

Bridgette: I love that, Irvine.

Irvine: Yeah.

Bridgette: I like the title, getting to the core. And that we don’t have to focus on all five simultaneously.

Irvine: That’s fun.

Bridgette: We can pick one and start there and use your gut to inform you as to which one to pick and be a little bit more intentional about, right? Either, in terms of creating more of a reward for ourselves or creating more of a reward for our team.

Irvine: Yeah.

Bridgette: That it goes both ways, right?

Irvine: Yeah, absolutely.

Bridgette: Well, that practice, to me, so, beautifully, summarized this episode and what we talked about. And that, at the end of the day, people stay in rewarding workplaces, people engage and give their whole self to rewarding workplaces. And a leader has a huge impact on whether a workplace is rewarding or threatening, right?

Irvine: Yeah.

Bridgette: Love it. Let’s tee up our next episode. And this is one we’ve been thinking about doing for a while, have we not, Irvine?

Irvine: We have. We have talked about this, and so we’re, finally, going to do it next episode.

Bridgette: Yeah, yay. And I think we’re calling it, who are you? A leader, a manager, or both. And I can’t wait to dive into that topic.

Irvine: Very juicy. Very juicy.

Bridgette: So, thank you listeners for being with us, we so appreciate you taking this journey with us. Spread the word, of course, if you think this, particular, episode is something that your colleagues would be interested in hearing. And we look forward to joining with you next time. Irvine, it was a pleasure, as always.

Irvine: Thank you, Bridgette. Thank you listeners, and have a wonderful week ahead.

Bridgette: Take care.

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