Ep 58: Moving Past the Imposter Syndrome

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In this episode, Bridgette and Irvine explore why the Imposter Syndrome plaques so many leaders, both new and seasoned, the upside of feeling fraudulent, and what we can do to move past it.    


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Don’t forget to check out Irvine’s You Tube channel with new videos every Wednesday on emotional intelligence, resilience, and leadership.

Check out Irvine’s new book Leadership Lessons From The Pub.

Check out Bridgette’s book which she co-authored with Bod Duggan  Resilient Leadership 2.0.

And as always, don’t forget about all the mind-blowing free resources some of which are mentioned in each episode. 

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Bridgette Theurer [00:00:03]:
Well, hello everybody, and welcome to the Resilient Leadership Podcast, where everything we talk about

Bridgette Theurer [00:00:10]:
is aimed at helping you to lead with greater calm, clarity, and conviction even in anxious times. And my name is Brigitte Theurer. And as always, I am joined by my good friend and my collaborator, Irvine Nugent. Irvine, how the heck are you?

Irvine Nugent [00:00:27]:
I am doing very well, Bridgette. In fact, as we record this, I am in the other side of the world. I am down in South Africa, first time here. An amazing experience so far. I’m here to do a wedding of a very dear friend of mine, Laura and Mark. And so I’ve just begun vacation time, so I’m kinda chilled. And, the weather is beautiful. So, yeah, life is good.

Irvine Nugent [00:00:50]:
Life is good.

Bridgette Theurer [00:00:51]:
Well, I just want to say this, Irvine. You amaze me because a lot of the times when we’re recording, you’ve either come back from a far flung place or you’re heading to a far flung place. You just do not let the grass grow under

Irvine Nugent [00:01:06]:
your feet. Like hey. Life is to be lived, and there are places to explore, and it’s one of my passions. Yeah. So, Bridget, I’m intrigued about today’s topic. I think it is something that has been surfacing even more for me among the clients that I service. So why don’t you tell us a little bit about what we’re gonna chat about today?

Bridgette Theurer [00:01:28]:
Yeah. So today’s topic is all about the imposter syndrome. What is it? Why do we get it? And how do we move faster? Right?

Irvine Nugent [00:01:37]:
Yeah.

Bridgette Theurer [00:01:38]:
And that you know, it’s interesting, Irvine, to hear you say that you’re hearing it even more often, and I wanna come back to that because that I’m very curious about that. Like, is there something in the air? You know, that is I’m I’m really hearing it a lot in my clients. And so what what is this thing called the impostor syndrome? Well, you know, it is an experience that many leaders have at one point or another in their career where they harbor doubts about their fit for leadership. Right? Whether they’re up to a particular role they’ve taken on or a particular challenge they’re facing. And the thing is is that leaders typically keep the self doubt and the second guessing to themselves. They don’t tell even their closest friends or allies about it. And in some ways, I do think maybe that’s what makes it so painful is that’s the secret, you know, that we carry and therefore a struggle that we bear alone. Because we don’t wanna admit to anybody this thing that we’re feeling because then we’ll be exposed as the fraud we really think we are.

Irvine Nugent [00:02:44]:
Right? Yeah.

Bridgette Theurer [00:02:45]:
So it’s a it’s a tricky thing. And even when this is what is interesting. Even though these leaders that you and I have worked with have a successful track record. These are accomplished people. That does not dislodge it. Right?

Irvine Nugent [00:03:01]:
Mhmm.

Bridgette Theurer [00:03:02]:
So I’m I’m curious, Irvine. In your life, in your experience, have you ever felt like an imposter?

Irvine Nugent [00:03:10]:
Oh, boy. Yes. This is something that I have had to work with and it and it surfaces. A different flavor maybe surfaces now at this stage of my life. But, you know, there are a number of occasions where for me, especially in new situations. So I remember becoming CEO with a local branch of Catholic Charities that I was put in. It was very sudden appointment. And, oh, boy, did I absolutely, for months, feel out of place, feel that I wasn’t qualified, feel that there was better people that could have done this and, you know, kind of fake it, you make it type.

Irvine Nugent [00:03:53]:
And I was terrified in telling someone, you know. And then I can remember as I transitioned into the the my coaching practice, and I went to coaching school in Georgetown. I can remember the first couple of sessions in Georgetown looking around the room and thinking, these people are much better prepared than I am. What am I doing here? So for me, I’ve noticed it really intense around new beginnings, those kind of transitions. And, of course, some of that’s to be expected, but it’s unbalanced. It’s it’s really not taking into consideration the experience I bring or not appreciating that. So, yeah, it is being there. How about you, Bridget? Is it something that’s, showing its head in your life and career?

Bridgette Theurer [00:04:32]:
Indeed it has. And like you, when I first became a coach, I remember thinking, oh my gosh. Like, everybody’s better at this than I am. And what am I doing? Like, I I might mess up somebody’s life. You know, before, if I was doing consulting with a corporation, I mean, nobody was really gonna be messed up. Right?

Irvine Nugent [00:04:53]:
Yeah.

Bridgette Theurer [00:04:53]:
But you know the other time it’s interesting you say new beginnings. Because the other time I remember feeling or having imposter thoughts was when the birth of my first child. And so I’m in the hospital and, you know, give birth to my son, Sam. And of course, it’s a momentous and wonderful occasion, but I know I don’t have a clue about what I’m doing.

Irvine Nugent [00:05:17]:
Mhmm.

Bridgette Theurer [00:05:17]:
And it hits me that they’re gonna release me from the hospital in 24 hours with this kid. And I I mean, why are they doing that? I don’t know how to take care of this baby, you know, but I was afraid to say, like, can one of the nurses come home with me? You know? Because I was thinking, well, I guess all the other moms think they know what to do.

Irvine Nugent [00:05:40]:
Yeah.

Bridgette Theurer [00:05:41]:
Yeah. Or did I feel like an imposter? Yeah.

Irvine Nugent [00:05:45]:
So it’s interesting. You know, I I think I have noticed an uptick in people expression these thoughts. And I’m curious. I mean, how common is impostor syndrome? Is it pervasive or not or or a passing experience? I’m curious in your thoughts, Bridget.

Bridgette Theurer [00:06:01]:
Well, you know, I have to say for me and coaching clients, it has been a very common thing, you know, even among seasoned executives. And then, you know, the statistics bear this out. You know, according to one study, 70% of people surveyed, you know, admitted to it one time or another having imposter thoughts. That’s a lot of people. And even really, you know, incredibly accomplished people, successful people, well known people like Albert Einstein, for example, and Maya Angelou, both of whom admit it to harboring imposter like thoughts. So it’s it is common. It’s a very, very common experience. And I hope for our listeners that right away that’s already given you some comfort.

Bridgette Theurer [00:06:52]:
And I’m thinking of a client that I coached. Oh, gosh. This has been about maybe almost 10 years ago, but I can still see him really clear who like, this is just one of many. But he presented very regal and confident, And he was a former air force leader who had many, many people in his, you know, part of the air force that he was leading, and he was medaled. In fact, he had all these medals on his, you know, uniform. I was coaching him, and when we sat down to do the intake session, I was really surprised, you know, when he said to me, after we gained some trust, of course, that he he secretly doubted whether he could do the job or not. And I’m looking at this guy and I’m thinking, wow. At that time, it it surprised me because of my previous interactions with him, in terms of meeting him initially, suggested otherwise.

Irvine Nugent [00:07:52]:
Yeah.

Bridgette Theurer [00:07:53]:
And nobody knew this

Irvine Nugent [00:07:55]:
Mhmm.

Bridgette Theurer [00:07:56]:
About this well decorated air force guy who was now in the government, right, in a new role, back to your point about new beginnings. So that guy really stands out to me. How about you, Irvine, when you think of the clients that have shared with you, and isn’t it a privilege that they are able to share this with us? Right? The secret. Have you had a similar experience with with a client or 2?

Irvine Nugent [00:08:23]:
Yeah. I mean, I think a phenomena which we have talked about, of course, is, you know, post COVID, what does the workplace look like? And, you know, we are in a time, I think, of generational shift just and and I think leaders want to be good. They they they want to be wise. And I know that I have been working with a few leaders who are highly accomplished, very thoughtful people Mhmm. And who really are almost like, I just don’t know if I have it to lead in these situations. I mean, I I I don’t know what it takes. I I don’t know what decisions to make, bringing people back to work in the office, all of these thorny, thorny issues. And then, you know, where do we go? How do we how do we plan for the future of work? And and feeling very underprepared for that, You know? And then kind of that rear in its head saying someone else would be better than me, or I should have the answers.

Irvine Nugent [00:09:18]:
Why don’t I know the answers for this? And, you know, I I think that’s how I’ve seen it. You know? And and and, you know, maybe when we talk about it is, well, maybe no one has the answers. Maybe you are the right person, and what you are going through is is is a new experience. So I and I think that’s where I’ve really seen it of late of good leaders who are really undercutting their own experience and the wisdom that they really have to bring to situations.

Bridgette Theurer [00:09:45]:
Yeah. That’s a good way of putting it. It’s like they’re dismissing their wisdom and their value. And I hadn’t really thought about it until you mentioned it, Irvine, but people have been managers have been trying to figure out how to lead and manage in a hybrid world without getting any training on. It. I mean, who who has training on that? Nobody?

Irvine Nugent [00:10:06]:
Yep. Yep.

Bridgette Theurer [00:10:08]:
So, of course, perhaps you would feel unsure and second guess, you know, a lot of your decisions. Mhmm. That makes sense. I’m wondering, and I think this would be really helpful for our listeners. What do you think makes us vulnerable to having the imposter syndrome? We don’t always have it, but what we’re kind of painting a picture of is that one time or another, 70% of us are gonna struggle with these kinds of thoughts. What are the vulnerabilities for this?

Irvine Nugent [00:10:40]:
If there’s a few that come to mind. So I think right off the bat, one thing that we’ve just already surfaced and that is, you know, when we take on a new role, a more demanding role or maybe a challenge, so, like, part of this is, you know, how do we bring people back from from who were working at home and integrate them back into the office? There is a challenge that really has never happened before. And I think these challenges really are prone to impostor syndrome showing up at leaders’ doorsteps. Because I think, you know, it’s built on this assumption, which is so false, And that is that good leaders have all the answers, and good leaders know what direction. And we kinda feel, you know, people look to us to get direction. People look to us for, you know, the way that we should react. And so there’s this huge pressure that we have to reform and perform right away. We never you know, it’s so funny.

Irvine Nugent [00:11:30]:
We never give ourselves the grace for learning. Whereas if we had a new employee, we would totally give them the grace to learn and to to adapt to the to the rope. So I think that’s that’s the situation. And then, you know, I think another one which is is kind of coming on from that, and that is I think we all have our own beliefs and assumptions about what leadership should look like or what I should be as a leader. And if we’re not that, then we feel, well, then I don’t fit in. So say, for example, like a popular one. Well, leaders are gregarious. They’re charismatic.

Irvine Nugent [00:12:04]:
They have these amazing people skills. They can connect. And I’m an introvert. I’m a little awkward socially. I’m not the right mold or the right fit. Or, you know, the other way around is, you know, leaders are very technical. If I’m going to show up I remember this was a client before, you know, who was a supervisor of nuclear scientists, and their background was not nuclear science. And and and just like, well, I I I don’t have a right to lead these people because I don’t have the depth of knowledge.

Irvine Nugent [00:12:33]:
I don’t have the technical skills. And so we’ve made these assumptions. And, of course, these assumptions play into this sense of unworthiness or this sense of I don’t fit this ideal build of a leader, and so, therefore, I shouldn’t be leading. And then I say a third one then is, it kind of goes on from that then is is, you know, sometimes if you tend towards a sense of perfectionism, I think that itself leads itself to be prone to some imposter syndrome. Because, you know, it’s this whole I have to do everything right, and there is no room for error. There are no room for mistakes. And if I don’t live up and very often, you know, and I’ve seen this with some leaders as well. Boy, are they hard on themselves.

Irvine Nugent [00:13:20]:
And the standards that they set on themselves are are and and, ironically, they don’t do this to anyone else. You know? But, Pete, if you ask another person, you know, how do they say, oh, they’re wonderful. They are amazing. You know? And they’re helpful, etcetera. And yet on themselves, they are super hard. And and if you put a little thing wrong, then all of a sudden, the judgment comes out and said, you know, who am you know, I just failed in this. So I think, you know, those are 3 different areas that come out. Do they resonate? Bridget, have you seen those?

Bridgette Theurer [00:13:52]:
Yeah. When you were talking about well, all of them do. Yes. When you were talking about the assumptions and beliefs that we have about what makes a good leader, and you mentioned being introverted, that brought back some other memories of of working with introverted leaders who then admitted to me that, well, I mean, I’m introverted, and that’s not who most leaders are, so I’m not fit for leadership. Now, of course, we do know in this country, most the further you go up the ranks, the more extroverts you see. So there’s truth in that. And the research also shows that introverted leaders can be as effective as extroverted leaders, and in some ways, more so. They each have their own strengths.

Bridgette Theurer [00:14:37]:
Right? So I definitely relate to that. And, you know, I think, you know, another thing that might make us vulnerable oh, that the last one you said about perfectionism and high standards, boy. I mean, most of the people we coach have that. That’s why they’ve gotten where they are, and they give themselves very little grace for not meeting those. But I would add one more thing I think makes us vulnerable to impostor syndrome, and that is if we’re somebody who tends to play the comparison game. Now we all compare ourselves to other people. We it’s instinctive. But for some of us, that’s a real pattern.

Bridgette Theurer [00:15:15]:
We’re sizing ourselves up. These are these other people who are doing the same thing as us. And then we’re saying, well, oh, god. They look like they have it all together, and I don’t. So, you know, I there must be something wrong with me, or I’m not cut out for this. And yet, what we’ve been saying is you can’t tell from the outside if somebody has impostor syndrome. In fact, they may look perfectly confident because it’s a secret they’re keeping to themselves. So you you can’t compare yourself and make any judgments.

Bridgette Theurer [00:15:50]:
You don’t know what other people are feeling on the inside and what doubts they’re secretly harboring. Right? So all of those, yes, all of those things, I think, make us vulnerable to it. And then, you know, now that we’re talking the serving, doesn’t it make sense that at one time or another in our careers, we may suffer from the impostor syndrome.

Irvine Nugent [00:16:14]:
Yep.

Bridgette Theurer [00:16:14]:
Okay. So in your experience, Irvine, what is the impact of having the imposter syndrome? Like, how does it affect us?

Irvine Nugent [00:16:25]:
Yeah. I mean, I think the most obvious thing here for us would be pointing out an increase in anxiety and stress. And so I think, you know, you could absolutely see a connection of where we’re going with this. So, you know, here you are. You’ve got a new role, a new problem, and so you think I’m not competent. I’m not capable. And then the worst thing what is the worst thing that could happen? The worst thing that could happen is people would find out. And so, therefore, you will do anything to cover that up, including as you said at the at the beginning, not telling anyone.

Irvine Nugent [00:16:57]:
So I’m exhausted just thinking about that. So think about so think about, you know, the mental energy, the stress, the worry, the anxiety that goes with that, the worry that and somehow I’ll be found out to be a fraud. That that in some way I’ll make this huge mistake or or all of those things going on. Even without impostor syndrome, many of these situations are stressful. Getting a new position is stressful. Dealing with a problem is stressful. Then we add on top of that this layer of I don’t feel competent, and by the way, I need to cover this up. And so I think that’s the, you know, the most obvious impact off this.

Irvine Nugent [00:17:38]:
Now, however, there is good news, and we’ve alert we’ve kind of, alerted to this at the earlier on as well is is that, you know, it doesn’t appear in any way to impact performance. So in other words, if a leader is there and they feel that they don’t fit in, they’re not competent, etcetera, that doesn’t lead to poor performance. In fact, probably, because there’s an edginess there and there’s there’s they’re on high alert to that, it can probably lead to a better performance. But it’s interesting. There has been some research on this. In one, research project which dealt with, doctors and doctors who dealt with impostor syndrome. And, you know, did they give correct diagnosis compared to those that didn’t? And what we found was that absolutely they did. They performed equally well as well with other candidates for job interviews.

Irvine Nugent [00:18:31]:
Those that felt really interviewing for a job and they had imposter syndrome, they were just as likely to be called back for a second interview as those who did not. So that’s wonderful thing. So, you know, you know, when you suffer from impostor syndrome or you go through this episode, it absolutely, internally feels this huge thing and it must be impacting. So it’s wonderful. It’s it’s actually a weight of our shoulders to think, actually, no. On the outside, it’s actually not showing up. And so therefore, I think, you know, that’s a it’s a wonderful thing to kinda relieve us. And I also think there’s an upside to this, you know, very often when do you find your do you think there’s any upside to impostor syndrome? I’m do you find your do you think there’s any upside to impostor syndrome?

Bridgette Theurer [00:19:20]:
Well, I think, really, it’s what you just said, which is that there’s an interpersonal silver lining to it. Right?

Irvine Nugent [00:19:28]:
Yeah.

Bridgette Theurer [00:19:28]:
In other words, because we are harboring these doubts, right, because we are not sure we’re fit for the role, it makes us perhaps more attuned to others. Right? We are wanting to get it right, and we’re gonna pay attention more closely to our impact on others. And so in those studies that you just cited, which for our, our listeners edification, I think that was done by a woman named Basima Tufik. Am I right about that, Irvine? Yes.

Irvine Nugent [00:20:04]:
Of course. From my

Bridgette Theurer [00:20:05]:
team’s business management. Yeah. She’s really done a lot of research around imposter syndrome. Mhmm. And, she’s the one that sort of coined this idea of there being an interpersonal silver lining. So I think that’s really interesting. So I wanna say 2 things. 1 is not only does having the imposter syndrome not degrade performance, And in addition to that, there’s an upside.

Bridgette Theurer [00:20:35]:
Right? That that perhaps we’re gonna get rated more highly in terms of our interpersonal skills.

Irvine Nugent [00:20:41]:
Yeah.

Bridgette Theurer [00:20:42]:
So, again, lots of people have it. It doesn’t degrade performance, and there’s an upside. So, hopefully, we’re kind of resting a little more comfortably in this thing called the imposter syndrome. Yeah. Yeah. Right?

Irvine Nugent [00:20:57]:
So I think, Bridget, then knowing some of the areas that that make us more prone to it And the fact that so many of us go through experiences and bouts of impostor syndrome. Have you any tips for how we might better manage it when it does rear its ugly head?

Bridgette Theurer [00:21:17]:
Yeah. Because I’m sure our listeners are saying, okay. That’s great. I feel better. But is there anything else I

Irvine Nugent [00:21:22]:
can do?

Bridgette Theurer [00:21:22]:
Mhmm. Other than just wait it out because, of course, it passes. Right? Mhmm. But if we don’t wanna wait it out, there are some things we can do. So the first one, we’ve already talked about, but it bears repeating, and that is that we can normalize this. This is really not a syndrome in the sense that we think of syndromes as, like, you know, something’s wrong with us, but it’s really a common occurrence. Mhmm. We can almost look at it as a rite of passage.

Irvine Nugent [00:21:50]:
Right? Yep.

Bridgette Theurer [00:21:51]:
Invariably, we’re gonna experience it at one time or another. And I think if you’re a leader and you’re managing somebody that you suspect may harbor a lot of self doubt, to normalize it for them is really important. So that that’s one thing I think that’s really important that we can do. Secondly, reframe it. I mean, we we put this frame around it that, you know, oh, it’s this dark secret we have to carry within ourselves because it means there’s a defect with us and so forth. And therefore, we’re doing something wrong. But what if it actually is a sign we’re doing something right?

Irvine Nugent [00:22:27]:
Mhmm.

Bridgette Theurer [00:22:28]:
What are we doing right? We’re putting ourselves out there in new positions. We’re being promoted into new roles because others have confidence in us. So we’re in the game.

Irvine Nugent [00:22:41]:
Yep.

Bridgette Theurer [00:22:41]:
And when you’re in the game, sometimes you’re gonna have doubts about your playing ability. That’s okay. At least you’re in the game and you’re growing and you’re challenging yourself. And I guess the other thing I would say that we can do is work on defining self. What I have found, Irvine, I don’t know if this is true for you, but when I’m coaching clients who are in the midst of imposter syndrome, one of the things that they become sensitive to is what other people want them to be, the expectations of others, how others wanna define them, do this, you should do that, you know, Because since they don’t feel on steady ground, they’re like, well, they look outwardly. Right? And I think if we look inwardly, we take a step back from all that second guessing and all that should I do this, should I be that, and spend some time in reflection about, okay, who am I?

Irvine Nugent [00:23:37]:
Yeah.

Bridgette Theurer [00:23:37]:
You know, what do I really care about in this role? What matters most to me? How do I define success? I think usually that brings a bit of calm to us. Right? Yeah.

Irvine Nugent [00:23:50]:
And now

Bridgette Theurer [00:23:50]:
what do you say, Gervin? Is that resonate?

Irvine Nugent [00:23:52]:
Yeah. I I that really resonates as well. Funny, I remember a client as well who who really went through she went through some bouts of of that. And she finds something helpful, which is kind of funny. She named the imposter voice. She said, you know, my imposter voice sounds like one of my aunts who was always very judgmental growing up. And she said, so I call my imposter voice aunt Lizzie. And she goes, oh, there it is.

Irvine Nugent [00:24:18]:
And she she kind of actually which I love is mid light of it a little bit. Oh, there’s aunt Lizzie again. It’s that voice. You know? And kind of you know? And and, you know, and and and I used to say, well, was aunt Lizzie alright? She goes, no. Aunt Lizzie made judgments all the time. And I said, well, there you go. He said, okay, aunt Lizzie. Thanks.

Irvine Nugent [00:24:33]:
Gonna listen to your voice, you know, but we know you get worked out, etcetera. And I I kinda love the because sometimes it gets very serious, you know, and and that little bit of levity of really making fun of that voice, I thought was a wonderful technique.

Bridgette Theurer [00:24:47]:
Yeah. That’s beautiful. So, hopefully, some of what we have said to our listeners, if you, in fact, suffer right now from imposter syndrome, has been helpful to you.

Irvine Nugent [00:24:59]:
Mhmm.

Bridgette Theurer [00:25:00]:
And yet, Irvine, we always like to leave at the very end sort of a singular core practice. What might you share with our listeners?

Irvine Nugent [00:25:10]:
So here’s a practice which is more a challenge. And that is, you know, I think one of the things that we’ve said that that what makes this insidious in a way is it’s it’s in the fact that we feel that we are alone in it. And that the important thing is above all else to cover it up. And so the challenge maybe is to give it light because I think that if you do, you will hear a gasp of relief of people around the table because they too are dealing with the same thing. And I I think just normalizing it and and maybe, you know, beginning to be a little vulnerable and saying, you know, hey. We’ve got the tough decision. And, you know, I I know I’m struggling with it, you know, and kind of this decision. It’s a difficult decision.

Irvine Nugent [00:25:57]:
At times, I wake up and I struggle. Do I you know, who am I to make this decision, etcetera? And I think people really will find that comforting, and I think as well that level of vulnerability in bringing this will enable them to bring it up together. And I think it will cause a connection with other people. So I think I think the practice today is to challenge yourself and to look for opportunities where you can really destigmatize, you know, this experience that so many of too many people suffer in the workforce.

Bridgette Theurer [00:26:30]:
Yeah. I love that. And when you said what makes it insidious is that we feel we’re alone in it. Yeah. And so by sharing it as a common phenomena, it does we stigmatize it as you say. It brings it out of the shadows. Right? Yeah. Yeah.

Bridgette Theurer [00:26:49]:
You know, speaking of bringing it out of the shadows, I have a client and they have a practice in their organization of doing lunch and learns, you know, regularly. And listening to you, now I have this idea. I’m gonna suggest that one of the topics they do a lunch and learn on is the imposter syndrome.

Irvine Nugent [00:27:08]:
Yep.

Bridgette Theurer [00:27:08]:
Because it wouldn’t that be cool? Because, you know, that’s a way of sharing it with the entire company, and people could tell their own stories about it. You know? So that’s that’s

Irvine Nugent [00:27:18]:
Love that.

Bridgette Theurer [00:27:18]:
Well, Irvine, this has been a really fun conversation. Thank you as always. And, we’ve covered some great territory of the imposter syndrome and what it is and what makes us vulnerable to it and some good news about it. Yep. And, that each and every one of us, that when we have the impostor syndrome or we’re second guessing ourselves, we are in such good company.

Irvine Nugent [00:27:46]:
Yeah. Indeed we are.

Bridgette Theurer [00:27:48]:
Thanks to our listeners as always for being on this journey with us. If you found this particular episode helpful, we would love to hear from you. Comments are always welcome. And, Irvine, I look forward to our next conversation. Do you want to give listeners a little heads up about what

Irvine Nugent [00:28:07]:
it is? Next episode, we are gonna have a little conversation about making workplace conflict more productive.

Bridgette Theurer [00:28:16]:
Awesome. I look forward to that. All right. Well, take care everybody. Thank you.

Irvine Nugent [00:28:21]:
Take care everyone. Bye now.

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