Ep 51: 3 Practices for Being a More Potent Communicator


In this episode, Bridgette and Irvine share three simple yet impactful ways you can become an even more effective communicator.   



Don’t forget to check out Irvine’s You Tube channel with new videos every Wednesday on emotional intelligence, resilience, and leadership.

Check out Irvine’s new book Leadership Lessons From The Pub.

Check out Bridgette’s book which she co-authored with Bod Duggan  Resilient Leadership 2.0.

And as always, don’t forget about all the mind-blowing free resources some of which are mentioned in each episode. 


Bridgette Theurer [00:00:03]:

Well, welcome everybody to the Resilient Leadership podcast where everything we talk about is aimed at helping you to lead with a greater sense of calm, clarity, and conviction even in anxious times. I’m Bridgette Theurer. And as always, I am joined by the wonderful, charismatic, Irvine Nugent. You can’t see this, but he just had quite the expression when I said charismatic. Ruben, how the heck are you?


Irvine Nugent [00:00:32]:

I’m doing great. Thank you so much, Bridgette. Wow. It’s it’s always good to be called charismatic, I think. Life is good. And in fact, as you listen To this, we need to say to our listeners, happy new year because you’ll be listening to this. Although we’re recording it at the end of 2023, You will be listening to this and it will be 2024. Hard to believe we are in


Bridgette Theurer [00:00:55]:

a new year. That is something. Yeah. Alright.


Irvine Nugent [00:01:00]:

How are we gonna start this new year off, Bridgette, and what’s today’s topic?


Bridgette Theurer [00:01:04]:

Well, first of all, I must just say, remember a couple of episodes ago, we talked about what is your superpower and, you know, part of your your superpower is your charisma. So just saying.


Irvine Nugent [00:01:15]:



Bridgette Theurer [00:01:15]:

Okay. Now for today, we are gonna be focusing on communication, and in particular, how to become a more potent communicator. So regardless of, you know, to our listeners, what your role is, your title, your level of experience, where you sit in your organization, etcetera, etcetera. Your ability to communicate powerfully is an essential leadership skill and it’s an essential life skill. Is it not?


Irvine Nugent [00:01:46]:



Bridgette Theurer [00:01:47]:

And perhaps some of our listeners are already really good communicators, but who among us doesn’t wanna get even better?


Irvine Nugent [00:01:55]:



Bridgette Theurer [00:01:56]:

So in this episode, here’s what we’re gonna do. We are going to share 3 simple, but I think very impactful practices for becoming an even better communicator. And the good news is these are practices that every single one of us can actually grab hold of and do, they’re within reach. And as we do them, the good news is we get better over time.


Irvine Nugent [00:02:21]:



Bridgette Theurer [00:02:22]:

So, Irvine, that’s what we’re talking about today. But, you know, at the beginning of every single episode, we say that the purpose of this podcast, right, is to help our leaders, to help our listeners become the kind of leaders that embody greater clarity, calm, and conviction even when the world around them is uncertain and changing. And I’m just curious what connections you might make between that aim of our podcast and this topic today. Any thoughts? Yeah.


Irvine Nugent [00:02:55]:

I think I think there’s some great connections there. You know? So I think, first of all, you know, when we are anxious, I think we do want to hear voices that will help us. And I think we want voices that will, first of all, give us a sense of clarity because we get mixed up. And I think in communication, Clarity is so incredibly important. We’re gonna get into this in a little bit, but, you know, I mean, as I work with with people and I do Quite a bit of presentation coaching, and clarity is a huge thing. People who don’t have clarity in what they are trying to say, It comes out as a jumble and people just don’t follow them. And then the second thing is I think people really respond to enthusiasm. You know, they respond to conviction.


Irvine Nugent [00:03:40]:

You know? Show me your air. Show me that you have conviction around this. And so I think emotionality with inner communication is really important. Do And then the other thing, of course, is a calmness. Can I present and be a presence that is calm as well? And all of that, has to do with communications. I think the 3 of those are intimately linked with this topic today. So maybe let’s, dive into this 1st practice. We’ve got 3 practices.


Irvine Nugent [00:04:06]:

What’s the the first and and how can it help us communicate with greater power?


Bridgette Theurer [00:04:12]:

Alright. Let’s get right to it. So the first practice is this, connect your message to what others care about most. So in other words, we have to find ways of linking what we wanna say to what others want to hear. What everybody wants to hear is someone who is speaking into our genuine cares, our concerns, what keeps us up at night, what are our hopes, our dreams, and our aspirations, all the great communicators, past and present, do this so naturally and beautifully. You can tell a great communicator because they know their audience. Right? They know what their listeners care about. And, you know, that listening, by the way, is a precursor to this practice.


Bridgette Theurer [00:05:01]:

You have to have listened to people to know what they care about.


Irvine Nugent [00:05:05]:



Bridgette Theurer [00:05:05]:

And because they’ve done that, they’re able to communicate in a way that create an opening and a receptivity to their messaging. Right? So that’s the first practice. So, Irvine, can you think of some leaders either past or present that you think did this particularly well?


Irvine Nugent [00:05:24]:

I’m gonna point to 2 leaders. 1 Well known and one is well known, but perhaps people don’t know them. But, so the first one is and we just celebrated 10 years of his passing, and that’s Nelson Mandela. And what’s interesting about Nelson Mandela is that I thought what he did so well is that he helped people connect to their own hopes and aspirations. You know, there’s a quote that I love of his which says, you know, may your choices reflect your hopes and not your fears. And you know what I think about? You know, he came at a time when South Africa was transitioning and that could have gone anywhere. It could have gone into violence Or it could have gone into a peaceful translation. And I think when he helped people, he understood the concerns, the fears.


Irvine Nugent [00:06:10]:

He understood The hurts. And he was able, in a way, to to invite people to imagine a a future of connection, future of peace and a future of prosperity. And, you know, and he did that so beautifully well, and, you know, you cannot help But listen to him and be moved. And so he just automatically came to mind. Mhmm. And then a second one from industry Was probably one of the 1st really powerful women CEOs to lead a top fortune company, and that was Indran Nouri. And she was CEO of Pepsi Cola at a time when very few executives were were male. And she was before her time because, You know, and she’s only retired, you know, I I think within the last 10 years.


Irvine Nugent [00:06:58]:

But she really created a culture Which people now refer to as a democratic culture, a listening culture, a culture based in compassion and well-being. She was really ahead of the whole you know, now we’ve talked about employee well-being and and and leaders need to know they need to ask. She was before that. She she actually was talking to employees. She was known as a listener, as someone of compassion that really was able to put her finger on The pulse of what was happening. I I really think she’s a a wonderful model not just for women, but I think a wonderful model as well for for all leadership.


Bridgette Theurer [00:07:34]:

Oh, gosh. I love that. I mean, I have not heard of her. Say her name again, Irvine.


Irvine Nugent [00:07:39]:

Indra Nooryi.


Bridgette Theurer [00:07:41]:

What a really interesting example. Definitely ahead of our time. And then, of course, Nelson Mandela. I mean, what you described about him is just such a beautiful example of speaking into the cares and concerns turns and hopes for a better future. Right? Yeah.


Irvine Nugent [00:07:57]:

Yeah. So, Bridgette, these are well known. Well, maybe Indra’s not so well known, but I encourage people to to research a little bit. But everyday leaders, what might they do as well to really embrace this first practice?


Bridgette Theurer [00:08:12]:

Yeah. So, of course, I always worry when I ask that question, like, can you think of some, you know, famous leaders? Because then people are like, well, I know Nelson Mandela, you know.


Irvine Nugent [00:08:21]:

Mhmm. Mhmm.


Bridgette Theurer [00:08:22]:

The fact of matter is we communicate all day long. And what that means is that each and every one of us have many opportunities throughout the day to frame our messages in the context of what people care about. Remember, that’s the first practice. Connect what you want to say to what others care about most. And we are communicating all day long through text, emails, on Slack, Teams, Zoom calls, phone calls, Teams meetings. I mean, this is what we do all day long. And did. So the idea here is to step back a bit from all of that communicating and reflect a bit more on who are we communicating to.


Bridgette Theurer [00:09:03]:

That might be our boss, it might be client, it might be a colleague. But the question we need to ask ourselves as we’re communicating is twofold. First, alright. I’m sending an email or I’m on a meeting with somebody. What is this person up against and what do they care about most? You just ask yourself that. And then that helps you to frame or tailor your message. So that’s the 2nd part of the question. What are they up against and what do they care about, but how can I tailor my message so it really speaks to them? Mhmm.


Bridgette Theurer [00:09:38]:

Yeah. Alright. So I’m gonna share an example, Irvine, that you and I are both gonna relate to because we’re coaches. Right? So when we were trained to do this but let’s say you’re coaching somebody. Now our listeners, if you’re a manager, you’re an internal coach, so this applies to you too. Right? Maybe you’re a member of somebody. But we were trained, Irvine, that that when we wanted to introduce something to a client in a coaching context, like, maybe a practice, let’s say. We don’t just introduce it because we’re in love with it, we think it’s so cool, you know, we introduce it in a way that is connected to what that client really cares about and what they’re trying to accomplish.


Bridgette Theurer [00:10:18]:

Until we give it context that speaks to them. So let’s say I wanted to introduce 6 Second Centering, which I did recently with a client. And I was a little, thought, I wonder I wonder about this person’s receptivity to this practice that we’ve talked about on this podcast, 6 Seconds Centering. But because I asked myself the question, why am I gonna introduce this? How is this gonna help this person lean into a challenge they have or accomplish something they care deeply about. And you know what? I framed it just like that are connected to something he cares deeply about. And you know what? The listening was right there, and he took it and he took it on as a practice. So that’s kind of a everyday example. And then I think another everyday example, of course, is emails.


Bridgette Theurer [00:11:07]:

Right? When you write an email and we write them all day long. And people tell me, Irvine, I don’t know if your clients tell you this, but they get sometimes upwards of a couple 100 emails a day, which is talk bizarre


Irvine Nugent [00:11:20]:

Crazy crazy.


Bridgette Theurer [00:11:21]:

But how can we pause there and be more thoughtful in certain instances just ask ourselves that question and say, alright. What does this person really wanna hear? What do they wanna hear? Not what do I wanna tell them? I wanna send them this long email with all the stuff. And then at the end is the question. And they’re like, you know, ticked off. They had to read this long thing. Because we’re not tuning into and framing our message for them, so we don’t create a listening. Right? So what do you think, Irvine? What are some everyday kinds of communication where we can put this to practice besides those 2 examples?


Irvine Nugent [00:12:00]:

Let me just a couple come to mind. 1 is, like, when you’re giving a presentation, I always like to say to people, you know, one of the first things when you’re crafting presentation and you are are talking to people is very early on, at the very beginning, you have an opportunity to either connect or disconnect. And I think one of the things that’s really important is to answer the WIFM question. If you don’t know what the WIFM is, w I f m, is what’s in it for me? You really have to present to people that I am going to share with you. Just like you said, I’m not gonna share because I’m just it’s it’s how wonderful I am, but I’m sharing information that has importance for you. And you do that by telling people, well, what’s in it for me? There’s there’s something you are going to get by listening, And I think that helps people connect. And it’s also very much what we’ve been talking about is people’s cares, concerns, etcetera. The only thing is sometimes you may have to pitch an idea, etcetera.


Irvine Nugent [00:12:55]:

And we’ve we’ve said this before, but I think, you know, An idea as well should be an answer to some form of problem. Where where is this idea coming from and what problems it going to To solve. Because if you’re going to a boss, a client, or a family member and you’re gonna say, hey. I’ve got an idea because it answers this, and you know how it’s been a problem. People go, oh, Tell me. Yes. I want this to be solved. So you may connect it to the problem that that it’s solving.


Irvine Nugent [00:13:21]:

And then the final one is, you know, sometimes we make decisions and we have to communicate a decision. And I think here’s where I’ll I’ll go as well about but clarity about why the decision was made the way it was made And connect them to how this decision is actually, once again, answering a problem and is going to make life a little bit better for us. So in other words, it’s really connecting with with those and showing that we have listened and we’re responding.


Bridgette Theurer [00:13:49]:

Yeah. And the bottom line, of course, is unless we have listened, we can’t do this. So Correct. You know, connecting what you are saying to what others care about assumes that you have done some pretty good deep listening to those stakeholders of yours. And if not, that’s its own practice right there.


Irvine Nugent [00:14:10]:



Bridgette Theurer [00:14:10]:

Okay. So hopefully then, we’re thinking about what form of communication on a daily basis might I sort of step back a little bit and ask that question about how do I frame this in a context connects to what others care about. Alright?


Irvine Nugent [00:14:29]:



Bridgette Theurer [00:14:29]:

But we said we’re gonna share 3 practices. That’s 1. So, Irvine, what’s the second?


Irvine Nugent [00:14:36]:

So a second practice is called the rule of 3. Now you may well think that it is the responsibility of other people understand what you are speaking about, and that is not their responsibility. It is our responsibility As the presenter or the speaker, to make things understandable and to create life easier for them. And so one of the ways we can do this is called through the rule of 3, and that is that our brains like patterns. And this rule of 3 came out in Bell Laboratories many years ago and the scientists discovered that the smallest pattern in the human brain is sets of 3. And because of that, we hone in and it enhances both our retention recall. And remember, the process of communication is to understand, retain and recall. And so if someone’s walking out of a room and you’ve given a presentation and someone stops them and says, hey, what was the person what was Irvine talking about? Is it I haven’t a clue.


Irvine Nugent [00:15:39]:

We’re really lonely to say if there’s 3 points and we emphasize those, people are more likely To retain that. So we’re giving them reasons for buying somethings, for trying something out, etcetera. You know, I’ve been in a presentation with so Today, we’re gonna talk about the 14 things. And it’s like the brain just says, no. I can’t cope with that. And, of course Yes. We have to do. And, you know, when you look around it, Naturally, with everything that we do and say, people have caught on to this.


Irvine Nugent [00:16:07]:

So we have blood, sweat, and tears. We have lights, camera, action. Within our own declaration of independence, we have a famous three life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. We have movies like The 3 Musketeers. During the holidays, we’ve we we talk about the 3 wise men. We have Charlie’s Angels, 3 angels. It’s all gotten to this rule of 3. You know, even, like, I do quite a bit of keynote, and that’s a 60 minute speech.


Irvine Nugent [00:16:35]:

And so I do that in 3. I have a group of 3. It’s 3 points.


Bridgette Theurer [00:16:38]:



Irvine Nugent [00:16:38]:

And in each of those points, I’m expanding it, but it’s just 3 so that people can remember. So remember, it is our duty to structure Our communication in a way that helps people remember. And one of the most powerful ways of doing that is the rule of 3. So does that resonate with you, Brigid?


Bridgette Theurer [00:16:58]:

Oh, yeah. It certainly does. And it’s funny that you say when you do a keynote, you use 3 points because I do the same thing. Every presentation I do whether it’s 1 hour or 5 hours, I’m thinking about the rule of 3. And I’m organizing my slides according to the rule of 3, you know?


Irvine Nugent [00:17:18]:



Bridgette Theurer [00:17:18]:

But one of the ways I’ve been using this as a as a coach, is that when I listen to my clients let’s say one of their goals is to communicate their vision more clearly and persuasively. And so I’ll be listening to them, and I’m listening for their vision. And I might even say, hey. Just off the top of your head, tell me about your vision. What is it? And what I’m listening for are of everything they say, what are the 3 juiciest nuggets? What are the 3 things that are landing for me the best or what are the 3 things they seem most convicted by, and I share that back with them.


Irvine Nugent [00:17:54]:



Bridgette Theurer [00:17:54]:

And I say, hey. This is what I hear, I think your vision is. And then they’re like, wow. I didn’t even think I had a vision. And then I tell them about the rule of 3. You know, you got 3 things and you can share your vision in in these 3 very easy to communicate ideas and off they go and running. So I love the rule of 3. I find it so, so helpful.


Irvine Nugent [00:18:19]:

Absolutely. So we’ve talked about the importance of connecting to the message of what others care about the most. We’ve just talked about the rule of 3 that will make us a little crispier in our communication. So what’s the we promised our listeners 3 tools. So what’s


Bridgette Theurer [00:18:36]:

3rd? We’re using the rule of 3.


Irvine Nugent [00:18:38]:

And we we use the rule of 3 as we speak.


Bridgette Theurer [00:18:40]:

And we have this entire time because every podcast episode, we have 3 ideas. Talk we like to practice what we preach. So final idea to share, final practice for being a more potent communicator is to master the art of bottom lining it. So what is that about? Well, that’s about being concise and succinct in our communication. And I don’t think this is easy for everybody. And I gotta say, when I was first starting out my career, it wasn’t easy for me. Did. And I had a boss, and I always remember him.


Bridgette Theurer [00:19:14]:

Who knows? Maybe I’ve mentioned him before. His name was Bob Lam, and I was 23 was my 1st job. And when I would walk into his office, he wouldn’t even lift his head up. He’d be riding, and he could tell I had come in, but he would just wait and I’d say something, and then whatever I said, he would say, Bridgette, in 10 words or less like a telegram, what are you trying to tell me? And so he literally said that every single time, and he taught me how to bottom line it, and I owe him a debt for that. You know, in this day and age, I consider bottom line to be a little bit of a lost art form. I don’t know about you, Irvine, but I feel like because we’ve become so inundated with information and text and and distractions and we’re on overload. I don’t and we’re running to meeting after meeting with no I don’t think we’re very disciplined with our speech. Yep.


Bridgette Theurer [00:20:11]:

Have you noticed that too?


Irvine Nugent [00:20:13]:

Oh, absolutely. You know, I often say When I’m I’m doing some communication coaching with people, in reality, it is much easier to talk for 20 minutes than it is for 3. Much easier. Because in 20 minutes, you don’t have choices to make. But when you’re in 3 minutes, you have choices to make and you have to be succinct and you have to choose. And, actually, this is an incredibly important skill Because the further up you speak, and especially if you’re speaking to an executive level team.


Bridgette Theurer [00:20:42]:



Irvine Nugent [00:20:43]:

You do not get a lot of time. You don’t get an hour. You don’t get 20. Often, you get a minute or 2 minutes or 3 minutes tops. And so, therefore, this becomes imperative To really be succinct in that communication. You know, I have funny sometimes, if I find people wandering, I’ll I’ll say to them, land the plane. The plane’s Preparing for landing. Just land it.


Irvine Nugent [00:21:03]:

Get get there. And I think it’s very important. So I I think it does take practice. And I think, You know, this this practice, if I if I had to say everything, maybe 10 words is very difficult. But certainly, you know, if I had to summarize what I’m saying In 2 or 3 sentences, that’s a really good discipline Mhmm. Because it really gets to what is the core element, what is the most important thing that I’m saying.


Bridgette Theurer [00:21:27]:

Yeah. I love your point about the higher up we go and the higher up our audiences are, the more the skill becomes paramount.


Irvine Nugent [00:21:35]:



Bridgette Theurer [00:21:36]:

And it actually gives us so much credibility if we can be succinct and concise. Alright. So let’s talk about some different places and ways that we can practice bottom lining it. You know? So a great place to use it is in a meeting when the conversation has stalled. Right? It’s gotten a little off track. And we all have experienced that. And so how can we use the art of bottom lining to bring it back? It might sound something like test. You know, I think we are spinning our wheels a bit, and we we’re rehashing some things that are really not on our agenda for today.


Bridgette Theurer [00:22:09]:

The bottom line is we have a half an hour left, and we need to identify a next step for communicating and rolling out this new policy. So who has a suggestion? On that example, we actually say the bottom line, but we don’t necessarily have to say the bottom line when we’re doing it. So imagine that you’re in a conversation and you’re listening to somebody. Maybe it’s an employee who reports to you. Maybe it’s somebody that, you know, could be a good friend or whatever. And they’re talking about their work. And you you’re listening to the sense of dissatisfaction and all this stuff. And you sensed that there’s a moment here where if you bottom line it for them, it’s gonna provide clarity and perhaps an insight that allows them to move forward.


Bridgette Theurer [00:22:55]:

Show, it might sound like this. Hey. It sounds to me like the core issue is that you are feeling restless. You know, you’re feeling unfulfilled in your current role and you’re ready for a new challenge. Tell me what that might look like for you.


Irvine Nugent [00:23:11]:



Bridgette Theurer [00:23:12]:

And then boom. They’re, like, ready to enter into, perhaps. Right? The next phase of that that conversation. We can also use bottom line, and here’s why I think it’s so helpful, is when we have to prepare for feedback conversation with somebody. And I know, Irvine, you have coached many a people around this. And when you listen to leaders who are gonna have to have a feedback conversation where they have give maybe some negative feedback, they’re all over the place. And they mentioned, like, 5 things and, you know, it’s just not gonna be heard. And so how can you bottom line the feedback succinctly? And that might sound something like this.


Bridgette Theurer [00:23:52]:

Hey, you know, I really need and expect you to speak up more during our executive team meetings. We need your insight and your voice at the table.


Irvine Nugent [00:24:01]:

What do


Bridgette Theurer [00:24:01]:

you think might be getting in your way?


Irvine Nugent [00:24:03]:



Bridgette Theurer [00:24:04]:

That’s pretty succinct, isn’t it?


Irvine Nugent [00:24:06]:

Yep. Absolutely.


Bridgette Theurer [00:24:07]:

What are your thoughts, Irvine, as you were listening talk to me


Irvine Nugent [00:24:10]:

I I love these examples. I, you know, I I love the example of mid meeting, you know, kind of really getting it back on track. I think another example would be end of meeting as well. These are great opportunities to, you know, kind of so here we’ve been speaking for 45 minutes. What’s the summary of this meeting? You know, very often, we don’t do that. Very often, we kinda go into, well, next steps. Who’s got this step or that step? And we really then don’t summarize the meeting. And I think that’s really helpful because people will remember certain things, but if you can really bottom line what a meeting was about, people will leave that meeting and say, okay.


Irvine Nugent [00:24:42]:

That’s really And, you know, at times how many times you walk away from a meeting? Well, that was about nothing. So I think, you know, we’re able to walk away. That’s this is really at the core of what this meeting was about. That can be really helpful.


Bridgette Theurer [00:24:53]:

Yeah. And when we talk about communication, and that’s the that’s what we’re talking about, communication is about building shared understanding. It’s not about just sending a message. We can do that by ourselves. So bottom lining helps us to get on the same page with people. And I wanna go back to what you said earlier about anxiety and about why clarity of communication is so important. And it’s really simple. A clear leader is a calming leader.


Irvine Nugent [00:25:23]:

Mhmm. And


Bridgette Theurer [00:25:24]:

a leader who is all over the place and is hard to follow creates anxiety for folks. Right? It’s like, what did they say? What did they mean? They just said that, but then they contradicted themselves with this thing, you know? Okay. So, hey, Ermin. I have an idea. Why don’t you bottom line this episode for us? What about what about practice?


Irvine Nugent [00:25:49]:

Pressure is on. Land the plane. Land the plane. Here we go. We’re coming


Bridgette Theurer [00:25:52]:

to the definitely.


Irvine Nugent [00:25:53]:

I love it. Well, you know, we’ve been talking about practice the whole episode. And in many ways, you know, communication is all about practice. So let’s not just add an extra practice. Let’s invite our listeners to really think about these 3 practices we’ve talked about today. First 1, connect your message to what others care about. 2nd practice, the rule of 3. And the 3rd, we just talked about mastering the art of bottom line.


Irvine Nugent [00:26:18]:

And so just think about in your communication, which one of those Could you focus on? Could you practice and get improve in? And then the second thing is, Can you come up with 2 or 3 situations where you might be able to use it? Maybe, you’ve got an upcoming presentation, So maybe you might begin to structure that a little bit differently and use the rule 3. Or maybe you’ve got a a meeting coming up, And, you could use it there or a feedback session, and what’s really the most core idea, the how can I bottom line this? Or maybe you’ve got a conversation about a change initiative that’s coming in, and so therefore, how can I listen to people so that that Message as I present the change is really conveying that we’re really caring about what people care about the most?


Bridgette Theurer [00:27:10]:

Love it. Pick 1 and get particular and specific about when and where you’re gonna practice it and you know what’s gonna happen, you’re gonna be a more potent communicator.


Irvine Nugent [00:27:20]:



Bridgette Theurer [00:27:21]:

Well, Irvine, thank you so much as always for engaging in this conversation. And to our listeners, thank you for joining us. We hope that you got something out of this that you feel is gonna take your communication skills to a new level. And as you said, Irvine, as we move forward in our careers and we experience things like promotions and we get more responsibilities, the clearer we can be, the more credible we become.


Irvine Nugent [00:27:48]:

Mhmm. Absolutely. Well, this has been a great conversation, Bridgette. I really enjoyed this. Thanks so much. Do. I appreciate it. Thanks everyone for listening.


Irvine Nugent [00:27:56]:

Until the next episode, take care. Took.

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